2006 Philles Season Thread

[PhillyPhreak54]

Whiz,

The problem with Madson has been location, location, location. He cannot, for whatever reason, locate his fastball. And since that is every pitchers bread and butter, it is getting him into trouble. His curveball isn't sharp and since his fastball is erratic his change-up isn't as effective as it could be.

He's got good velocity on the number one, but he cannot throw it for strikes consistently.

He's basically relying on his junk pitches to get him through games. Because even when he does get the fastball over it is getting hit because its down the middle.

I also think that being a starter and having to be more strategic in his approach is something that he is struggling with. As you know, as a starting pitcher you have to think ahead and set hitter up. And you have to be ready for their adjustments on the second, third and fourth times to the plate. Madson seems to be struggling there too.

He, in my opinion, is best suited for the "rock and fire" mentality of the bullpen. Get the ball, toe the rubber and make your pitch and get that one or two innings out of the way.

As for Hamels;

Charlie says he is campaigning for him. And the biggest problem we had in the past with our prospects was Ed Wade being too protective of them. Gillick wants to win. So I think that Pat will not be as reluctant to call up Cole once he meets whatever criteria Pat has set for him in his mind.

[Geowhizzer]

One more thought (and a Phillies history lesson):

Right now, the Phils have THREE starters with an ERA over 6:  Jon Lieber (6.87), Gavin Floyd (6.16) and Ryan Madsen (6.82).

The Phils' pitching staff right now is almost as bad as 1930, when the TEAM ERA was 6.17.  The "ace" that year was Phil Collins (no, not the singer), who went 16-11 with a 4.78 ERA.  Surprisingly enough, the perenially cash-strapped Phils didn't sell him to the highest bidder.  The rotation was rounded out by Ray Benge (11-15, 5.70), Leo Sweetland (7-15, 7.71), Claude Willoughby (4-17, 7.59).  Hap Elliott (6-11, 7.67) started 11 games for the Phils, and seven other pitchers started games (ranging from 1 to 9 starts).  The ONLY pitcher to post an ERA below 4.00 was John Milligan (1-2, 3.18).  The problem?  He only pitched in 9 games, with 2 starts.  That taste should have been enough to keep Milligan in the Phils' plans in '31, though- right?  Think again:  He pitched in a total of THREE games in 1931 (no starts, 0-0, 3.38 in 8 innings) and was never seen in Philly again.

Unfortunately, the woeful pitching staff sabotaged one of the best team offenses in baseball, led by Hall of Famer Chuck Klein (40 HR, 170 RBI, .386 AVG), Lefty O'Doul (22, 97 and .383) and Pinky Whitney (8, 117, .342), the Phils hit .315 as a team (2nd to the New York Giants' .319 that year), with 345 doubles (2nd to St. Louis), 143 homers (2nd to Chicago) and 944 runs (4th).  Even with that relatively prolific offense, the Phils were outscored by 255 runs!

The 1930 Phillies final record:  52-102, dead last, a mere 40 games behind the pennant-winning St. Louis Cardinals.  Philly fans didn't care, though: The Philadelphia Athletics won 102 games and the World Series over St. Louis in 6 games.  The Athletics scored seven more runs than the Phils (951), but allowed 448 less runs.  The A's ERA of 4.28 was the 2nd lowest in the AL (only the Washington Senators posted an ERA below 4, at 3.96).  The Athletics featured Hall of Famers Mickey Cochrane, Jimmy Foxx, Al Simmons, Lefty Grove (who won 28 games that season), and manager Connie Mack that year.  Eddie Collins was a player-coach (only played 3 games).

The Athletics' attendance in 1930 (Shibe Park- later Connie Mack Stadium):  721,663 (9,372 per game, 2nd in AL (Yankees), 4th in MLB (Cubs, Dodgers).  The Athletics actually had more attendance in 1930 than Baseball Heaven did for the Cardinals (508,501)- and Browns (152,088)- combined.

The Phillies' attendance in 1930 (Baker Bowl):  299,007 (3,833 per game):  Last  in NL, 2nd to last in MLB (St. Louis Browns).

[Sgt PSN]

We kept the wrong team.   

[Geowhizzer]

Another interesting tidbit:  The 1930 World Series was the Athletics' 5th and last in Philly (1910, 1911, 1913, 1929, 1930).

At the time, the Yankees only had three (1923, 1926, 1927). 

The 1931 A's won the AL pennant, but lost the World Series to St. Louis.  The A's then began the slide into obscurity as Mack had to sell players to stay afloat, much like the Phillies, except that until 1931 Mack usually did it better.

I believe that what saved the Phillies in Philadelphia was the Carpenter family buying the Phils in 1943.  In 1942, the league took away the franchise from Gerry Nugent (paying $250,000 and assuming $300,000 in debts) and sold it to William Cox.  In true Phillies' fashion, Cox lost the team after one season when it was found that he had placed bets- on the Phillies (being a smart money guy, I am assuming the the bets were against the team, but I don't know for certain).  Bob Carpenter, Sr. then bought the team for his son, Bob Carpenter Jr., and the golden age of Phillies baseball was about ready to begin.

That, along with Mack no longer being able to acquire talent (advancing age may have had something to do with this, as the grand old man didn't step down as manager until age 88).  With the rise of the Whiz Kids in the late 1940s, culminating in the pennant in 1950, the fortunes of the two teams had reversed, and it would be the A's that would leave for Kansas City after the 1954 season after the Mack family sold the team to Arnold Johnson (who had to sell Yankee Stadium to buy the team).  There had been a feud among the family members, who had basically forced Mack out and taken over, and had to sell because they could no longer service the immense debt that had been accumulated.

If a team had moved before about 1944, it would have definitely been the Phillies. 1943 was the first year that the Phillies outdrew the Athletics at Shibe Park, and the first time at all since 1920 (when the Phils still played at Baker Bowl before moving to Shibe Park in 1938)- and the Phils dropped below 200,000 fans three separate times in the 1930s (1933, 1934, 1938).  By the last year the A's were in Philadelphia (1954), it was the Phils that were the darlings of the city, outdrawing the Athletics by more than 2 to 1 (738,991 to 304,666).  The Phils cleared 1 million fans in 1950 (and led the league in attendance that year) and would not dip below 700,000 fans in the decade (and not until the woeful Phils teams of the early 1960s).

[Geowhizzer]

One last tidbit before I retire for the night:

Look at a diagram of old Baker Bowl (the Phils' home from 1887-1938):



Think Bobby Abreu and Chase Utley would like to hit in that stadium? 

[MDS]

Time for Lieber to get off the schnide tomorrow night and get us #8 in a row.

He won his last start in Florida, now 1-4 on the year. He really could use a good start and a win, though.

There were a bunch of Giants fans there, or maybe they were just Bonds fans. Normally don't see too many visiting fans at baseball games, save for their pathetic NJ Muts fans who are too afraid to go to Queens and instead infultrate our city and the Red Sox fans when they come here (but we return the favor and take over Fenway, so its all good).

A group of guys where wearing big cardboard "Juicy Juice" boxes around their bodies with Bonds written underneath. Took way too much time for somethat that wasn't that funny. Did see a good sign though, someone held up "Theres a dead hooker in my trunk" over in LF at the end of the game. I laughed at that one.

[Rome]

Speaking of the A's, my Uncle Edward was the bat boy for those World Series teams in 1929 & 1930.   You should see the collection of memorabilia my cousins have from that era.  Unreal.

[Geowhizzer]

Speaking of the A's, my Uncle Edward was the bat boy for those World Series teams in 1929 & 1930.   You should see the collection of memorabilia my cousins have from that era.  Unreal.

I was told that my great uncle was a scout for the old A's.  That would have been in the 40s and 50s, I believe.

[PhillyGirl]

wasn't sure if I should put this here or in the rest of baseball thread, but here goes:

Wagner tosses verbal fire at the Phils
The Mets closer says it was "24 against one" in the clubhouse last season.
By Jim Salisbury
Inquirer Staff Writer

NEW YORK - Three days before returning to Citizens Bank Park in a New York Mets uniform, outspoken former Phillies closer Billy Wagner yesterday painted a grim picture of his final weeks in the team's clubhouse last year.

"I knew I was not well-liked there," he said, referring to his former teammates. "I felt like an outsider."

Worse, Wagner said, he got the feeling late in the season that his teammates, whom he described as overly sensitive about media coverage, were just waiting to see him fail.

Wagner said he became "everyone's least favorite Phillie in the clubhouse" after he called his teammates on the carpet for their spiritless play in an interview that appeared July 1 in The Inquirer.

In response to Wagner's critical comments, former teammate Kenny Lofton called a team meeting in the weight room. Wagner described the meeting as "24 against one," and added that Pat Burrell called him a "rat" during the meeting.

"I had no problem with what was said to me," Wagner said. "It was their right. I can take criticism."

Wagner said manager Charlie Manuel had no qualms with what the closer said in the interview. In fact, Wagner said, there were several occasions last season when Manuel, frustrated with the team's lackadaisical play, urged Wagner to step up and say something to rouse teammates.

Told of Wagner's comment, Manuel said: "The only thing I ever said to Billy was, 'If you've got something to say, say it.' If he took it that way, I don't know why."

Six days ago, Manuel did his own talking and erupted on this year's team in the dugout in Miami. For Wagner, that brought back memories of his speaking out last year.

"Me and Placido Polanco used to talk about it all the time last year," Wagner said. "Something needed to be said. I was trying to be a leader. I wasn't trying to say, 'You stink.' I was trying to say, 'We need to get going.' I wanted to win.

"Charlie was great. He always had my back."

Wagner said some of his former teammates did not have his back, and he sensed they believed he deserved his late-season failures against Houston. He was the losing pitcher on Sept. 6 and 7.

On Sept. 7, in the heat of a pennant race, he surrendered a two-out, ninth-inning, three-run home run to Houston's Craig Biggio after David Bell committed an error to extend the game. The Phillies lost, 8-6.

"After I called them out, they were waiting for me to fall flat," Wagner said. "In my mind, when I went out to the mound, they were waiting for me to go in the tank. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I got."

Pitcher Brett Myers reacted angrily to that observation.

"That's a stupid comment," Myers said. "I can't believe he said that. We missed the playoffs by one game last year. Yeah, we cared if he blew a save. Maybe he didn't care. Maybe that was it. Maybe that's why he's saying this. That's a cop-out."

After blowing the save against Houston on Sept. 7, Wagner said only one person stopped by his locker to show him support - Manuel.

"I heard from more Astros players," Wagner said. "Guys from Houston called me and said, 'Keep going.' "

Wagner said he was hurt by his teammates' lack of support and added that he's loving life with the Mets because the team is like a family.

"There was no support there," he said of the Phillies' clubhouse. "As soon as the game was over, everyone was gone and I was there by myself."

Wagner saved 38 games and blew just three last season. After games, good or bad, he always was available to speak with reporters. He still wonders why he and the game's starting pitchers (except for Vicente Padilla) were often the only ones willing to do that.

"They worry too much about the media," Wagner said. "Not every player is going to have a good season, and when you can't handle criticism, it makes it harder. Sometimes guys felt the media was after them. If they had a good game, they'd say, '[Forget] them. Boycott them.' It was frustrating because the starting pitcher and I always had to go out there and take the beating."

His complaints about his former teammates aside, Wagner said playing in Philadelphia was a good experience, that it toughened his skin. He added that he has some good relationships with people in Philadelphia and is looking forward to seeing old teammates Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Jon Lieber and Bobby Abreu. He did not mention Burrell. There's no love lost there.

Wagner will not fire any warning shots at Burrell if he faces him in the three-game series, which begins Tuesday.

"I don't play silly games," he said. "I'll just have to get him out. I'm sure it would mean more to him to hit a home run off me than it would to me to get him out. But it'll be a long [home-run] trot if he does hit one out. I wouldn't expect anything else."

Said Burrell: "Billy's one of the best closers in the game. I really have nothing to say. Hopefully, he's happier over there."

whiny bitch

I can't wait to see what happens with him in the bullpen this Tuesday night. 

[Rome]

Wagner's a loudmouth Hoyda.   Watching him blow save after save in New York is hilarious.  If he thinks people in Philly were tough on him, just wait until he blows a couple of saves in the heat of a pennant race in New York.  The rags will crucify his hillbilly ass.

[MDS]

Why the hell is he still talking about his time here? Jesus, it's like Larry Brown when he signed with Detroit and he kept running his mouth about the Sixers. Shut the farg up, you whiny little bitch.

[SD_Eagle5]

Here's a newsflash for ya Billy, when its 24 against 1 and you're the 1, its time to look in the mirror to see what you're doing wrong.

"After I called them out, they were waiting for me to fall flat," Wagner said. "In my mind, when I went out to the mound, they were waiting for me to go in the tank. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I got."

[/i]

Waaaaah, what a very TO-like statement.

[MDS]

Well it's no secret Burrell is a total bitch, but come on. Wagner is a douche.

[Wingspan]

when i blasted wagner for saying that last year...i got jumped all over here.

his mouth was "part of his charm" when he was a phillie...and now the same makes him a whiney bitch?

meh...the mets are still 5 games up...

when and if they get to 5 games down, then we can laugh at the press quotes.

[Geowhizzer]

when i blasted wagner for saying that last year...i got jumped all over here.

his mouth was "part of his charm" when he was a phillie...and now the same makes him a whiney bitch?

meh...the mets are still 5 games up...

when and if they get to 5 games down, then we can laugh at the press quotes.

.

Eh, the quotes don't bother me much.  He's a Met now, so we have to hate him.